Victoria University kicks out students for anti-war protest

Does that mean 'Comrade' Alastair may actually have to find work?

Alastair worked for to years at Countdown supermarket and is in the process of finding work atm here in Wellington. You may have heard of this little event called the 'recession' which means work is harder to find.

This isn't about to health and safety. Ian filmed the flag being burned and he's being expelled too... Marika watched it happen and is being given a warning. The uni's saying that this is because 'they knew about it and did nothing'. The university is now supposedly able to punish you for what's inside your head.

We came across as a wee bit nervous in the radio interview just aired on checkpoint but overall I think it went well enough. Debora Willis is just awful.

We plan on organising a picket and possibly some other actions in protest against this next Friday (the 29th) so if anyone wants to help out with that let us know. Joel's contact details are at the bottom of the statement.

This is fucking outrageous.

Godness, what a lightning response from all the big names in the Workers Party to this self-engineered side event.
Press releases, promises of "vigrous" campaigns decrying "tinpot dictators" etc etc.

Still waiting however, for any WP official comment on that other IndyMedia post - you know the one (on the sidebar) where the WP expelled their student member for allegedly breaking with the WP constitution.

There are some unanswered issues there comrades!

Perhaps this shoddy little flag burning episode is just what the WP needs at the moment to take attention off these other (less politically profitable) goings on.

Three days and still waiting...

Rodgr

What kind of dickhead lights a FIRE INSIDE AN OCCUPIED BUILDING?
If the admin didn’t kick them out, then the SRC should be convened and a vote put to students to do the job instead.
Student control of student affairs I say.

What is wrong with burning the present NZ flag, which is a symbol of imperialism and colonialism? Such actions deserve high respect and are an act of courage. The soldiers that died in past wars of course often did not understand fully what they were sent to fight the war for! They were simply cannon fodder to defend and uphold a capitalist, colonialist and exploitative system. They gave their bodies and health away for the dollar bill and so forth! Most of them will never understand and accept that, because they were poisoned with the drug of "patrionism", "service to the Queen and Motherland", and so forth! Look at NZ now, what has become of it. Would any of them still feel proud of having risked or even given their lives for the poor state of affairs we have nowadays? I doubt it. NZ must rid itself from the yolk of British dominance, colonial heritage and global capitalist exploitation. We can easily design a more fitting and appropriate new flag, have a president, the people of the country rule and have true independence. So what holds us back? It is only backward mindedness, servitude thinking, indifference and a predominantly dumbed down consumerist mind set of common people these days! Wake up, throw off the shackles, stand up, be counted and throw away or burn the imperialist heritage of the past!!!

Asher, perhaps you ought to take your own advice and "get your facts straight" before getting indignant.

Start by clicking the "VUWSA Meeting" link on the title page - it shows video of this sorry little event.

Firstly about the "rain" - Well I can't see any. The deck (which appears covered) doesnt look wet / nor does the furniture sitting around on it appear so. The people involved show no sign of being wet, and those who later step on the burnt flag do not leave wet/charcoally footprints as you would expect if it was even lightly raining. or the deck was wet.

Secondly, Accelerant is used. Then the flag is thrown on the ground whereapon it gets stuck on the leg or shoe of one of the firebugs who promptly kicks it under another chair and table before retreiving it.

I also didn't see any of the participants carrying a fire extinguisher in the event that the stunt got out of hand (ie; chairs and tables shoes or pants legs catching fire).

So I say again : what kind of a DICKHEAD lights a FIRE INSIDE A BUILDING?

Asher, perhaps it was raining when you had your smoke. But surely your whole defence of this act isn't based on it being safe because it may have been raining.

PS As far as having trouble grasping that the deck was outside - perhaps my problem is compounded by the fact that the video clearly shows the deck is covered by a canvass awning.

So back to the point about setting fires in buildings. Especially by incompetents such as these who almost managed to catch themselves on fire in the process.

Anyway looking more at the video - It appears to be on at lest the third floor of the building (perhaps higher). I just can't fathom anyone defending the idea that responsible people would light uncontrolled fires on an upper floor in a building.

Imagine if the dickhead kicking the burning flag around had kicked it under the womans voluminous skirt - I can just imagine her staggering, fully alight, over the edge of the balcony.

But then, after a couple more smokes - perhaps this too could have been reinvented as a matrydom in the interests of anti-imperialism.

i still find it interesting/irritating that a lot of lefty/anarchist anti-capitalist types smoke. where do they think the money they pay for their habit go? use the money for something useful will you...

Tim,
You are on the right track, these should be separate issues and ordinarily you would be right to support the “3 isolated individuals” on the civil rights issue.
But in this case the rights of the individuals to free expression were indulged in such a way as to endanger not only themselves but also others in the building (yep, I really am having a hard time grasping this in/out distinction, thanx John)

And again you are possibly right in your original comment that it is “typical of PC liberalism to use the OH&S issue to justify the expulsion”. But I don’t consider myself PC or liberal and had no idea of the authorities stated reason for this expulsion – I just read Indy, checked out the WP statement on the issue and looked at their self-made video -then made up my own mind that the stunt was ridiculous, adventurist, self indulgent but worst of all, outrageously dangerous to other people.

Hardly the antics one would want from individuals claiming to lead (workers) anywhere.

You wish to divide the issue into bite-sized chunks, each with their own quantum of supportability. (not sure about the fire / support free speech, etc). But politics is hardly ever a respecter of the rules of such formal mathematical logic. Would you be “agnostic” on the issue of the fire (but supportive of the act) if one of the participants had gone over the balcony in flames or if the dude with the accelerant had spilled it on the security guy and there was a real fire emergency? .

On this occasion such an artificial division serves only to benefit the perpetrators. They appear happy to engage in stunts that centre-stage themselves rather than the real organising required to oppose the NZ state and it’s current involvement in the pacific. They appear happy to grandstand on the basis of rights they claim for themselves (free speech) whilst conveniently disregarding the rights of others (not to be immolated).

That said, I think it is up to the organisation to which these individuals belong to get them to fess up to their irresponsibility - plead extenuating circumstances, over-emotion, brain-explosion - whatever. Were this done it would remove the stupid part of the act from the free speech part of the act and make it easier for people like myself to get over their unschooled grandstanding, and support the call for a lesser reaction from the administration.

Perplexingly those in their political organisation, who should have saner heads, seem more comfortable courting the notoriety.

'What is wrong with burning the present NZ flag, which is a symbol of imperialism and colonialism?'

Fuck that. People fought in Wars and died for that flag, that flag symbolizes what this country is, and many, /many/ people are proud of it. To burn it is pointless, more so 'around'(I think the paper said /on/ ANZAC day, but that's okay, this place is biased anyway) which would offend very many people.

In short, I think it should be jail time, personally. Just because you have political views on some such doesn't give anyone the right, in mine or many other peoples' eyes, the right to do something so disgusting and cowardly. If anyone burnt a Maori flag, you can bet your bottom doller they'd be bashed and then locked away.

If I ever saw someone burning my country's flag I'd put them on the fire with it.

The flag of a nation can be seen to be a symbol of its government. Therefore a protest action against a government can include the use of the nation's flag.

The Supreme Court (USA) 1989 stated a conviction for burning the American flag (as part of political protest) was a breach of the first amendment right to free speech.

NZ has made a similar decision. Its flag is protected by the "Flags, Emblems, and Names Protection Act 1981" (FENPA). Notice the Act focuses on actions that intend to dishonor the flag, I do not believe this rules out the use of the flag as part of a political protest.

Freedom of expression is guaranteed under the NZ Bill of Rights Act 1990. In one recent event a protest was made on NZ parliament grounds where a flag was burned. (Incident related to the Australian government's support of American actions in Iraq. The Australian Prime Minister was visiting NZ at the time.)

The NZ High Court gave the NZ legislation (FENPA) relating to the flag a 'narrow construction' saying the action on NZ Parliament grounds was not an act dishonoring the flag since "one permissible interpretation of that term is that the flag must be vilified".

This argues for the position that symbols can be used for several purposes, including national symbols, as part of political protest.

[Above point based on: Lecture 3, three speakers. See Geoffrey Palmer, "Approaches to Nationhood", part of a set of lectures under the series titled Concepts of Nationhood. Audiotape recording is available from the Radio NZ website, posted on 2 March, 2009. Http://www.radionz.co.nz]

Tim'n John

Don't get hung up on the rights issue guys. If anyone wants to burn flags - I have no problem with that. And as another writer correctly observes, that viewpoint should stand independently of what the bourgie' legislation may say on the question.

But this is not fundamentally a rights issue, no matter how the WP has now chosen to try and present themselves after the event.

For John, here's another analogy, another "red herring" bro; Imagine if the NZ flag that Tama Iti had taken a shot at was being worn over someone’s shoulders at the time (a footie supporter maybe), then which would be the bigger issue: Tama’s right to deface a symbol of national oppression, or the right of someone else not to get shot?

Context is everything.

I have no issue with flag burning. But go burn them in open fields, on marches, away from secondary sources of ignition, or at least were there is clear room to move away.

Sure, there should be a campaign to reduce the severity of the action taken by the Uni authorities.

But such a campaign should be fully based on the "rights" issue. And this will not happen as long as there is a “fire” issue entwined with it. Without the demark’ then the debate will not be about rights, nor will it be about anti-imperialism, instead it will be about stupid individuals right (or not) to light fires in buildings wherever they feel the need.

But why should I have to argue these points against (past and present) WP members? Where is your man Phil F, who, if we are to believe his previous postings, agrees that random flag burnings are "not a smart move" and "that the left needs to get more suss about Anzac Day".

Why is Phil not instructing your junior members to apologise thereby FACILLITATING their campaign to gain reinstatement, and thereby NEGATING the contribution to the debate brought about by the stupid and unthinking part of their act.

When all is said and done, weeks from now I doubt that this will be a defining moment in NZ political history, the anti-war campaign , the student movement or much else beside.
But the carriage of the WP members, their ability to think on their feet and respond to something that may not quite have turned out how they planned it, and the quality of their leadership in such a situation - these are what will be remembered.

But at the moment that leadership is – “as the Americans say” – AWOL.

Cheers,
Anon

PS: There should also be another campaign run, one to convene a special SRC to debate the motion “Stupid people who light fires in buildings should be directed by the student body to clean up the ciggie butts around campus, whilst wearing T-shirts saying “Anti-Imperialist Action”.
A fitting kind of student self-government “community service", I think.

Cheers,
Anon

What's going on? We didn't even get that kinda crap when e bailed up the chairman of Lockheed during an anti Vietnam war protest in the 70s! And that was during one of the first APEC meetings ever held....

mike - in my previous post i was not suggesting that burning a flag is an act of aggression and or violence.
i was asking - are acts of violence and or aggression also granted the same leeway in terms of freedom of expression.

surely many political decisions/actions could be closely linked to acts of violence/aggression .. its a grey area mike ..

is the premise that the nz flag is symbolic of imperialism .. and burning a nz flag on anzac day is meant to symbolically burn all the worst parts of imperialism .. is that it ?

i feel that burning a flag could well be interpreted as an act of aggression..although
not particularly in this case,

flag burning
is just one group of individuals way of highlighting an issue .. and sure feel free to do it .. and equally feel free in the experiencing the consequences of your actions -

Ha ha ha, so much fuss about burning a rag with some blue colour, a Union Jack in the corner and a few stars! What a bloody joke this is. Even people supposedly died for this "rag". I have visited elderly people and veterans in old peoples homes. I have seen the most disgusting treatment they are exposed to by the health system of a country they fought for. On ANZAC Day they get rolled out into their wheelchairs, if they cannot walk anymore, get presented to the media and asked to sing some old songs and swear allegiance to Queen and Country! This is a shame and disgrace. This is one of the most hippo critical and disgusting countries I have seen, yet they talk of honour, pride, duty and dignity. Burn more of these damned colonial rags, one a day, one an hour, burn the whole rotten establishment of this lost country down, so a new and better society can be built on the ashes!

i'm happy in acknowledging quite a difference in perspective here john, but i understand what your saying.

i feel that these kind of actions are divisive and alienating, but a product of a wider human created divisive and alienating contextual field.